Ray Dalio, Principles, The Evolution of Bridgewater Associates, & Meditation | #AskGaryVee 275


– On this episode, living legend Ray Dalio stops by. (upbeat music) Hey everybody, this is Gary Vaynerchuk and this is episode 275
of the #AskGaryVee Show and I’m super fired up about this episode and let me explain to you why. Knowing my audience, I have a feeling a lot of you are about to be exposed to an extremely interesting gentlemen. More importantly, I think he’s gonna have
disproportionate impact on a sector of you because I do think it’s
coming from an angle that I would argue has very similar seeds to I think what makes me successful but comes from a
completely different angle and I think that’s exactly
how you tend to get results. And so Ray Dalio, please
first and foremost allow me thank you for being on the show. – Thank you for having me. I’m thrilled to be here. – Number one, I’m impressed and I want to make sure
everybody checks this out. You are hustling which excites me. You are showing up in all sectors on all sorts of places I respect, Tim Ferris’s podcast,
other places of that nature and then when I look at
Bill Gates and Tony Robbins and Arianna Huffington and Jamie Dimon and Mehmet Oz and Reed Hastings, the Rolodex of quotes for your new book which by the way I just told
Ray something very important. I do not read, as all of you know. When I make the joke that I’ve written more
books than I’ve read, I’m getting dangerously close but the few times I do read is when I’m on vacation between December 20th and the 24th when I go off the grid and I will be reading this book. So I’m excited. Now, so you guys know, that happens because my
team’s working with him and the vibe that Lindsey and him and the rest of the team, Miley, talk about this project continues to build on the fascination that I had when we first met. But the book’s buzz and more importantly, the reaction, ’cause I like to watch people. I don’t consume content but I consume people’s reactions. The reactions to the
concept of The Principles, and the book itself has been overwhelming. I feel like you had great
ambition for this project when I met you. How has it been going? Before I get into your origin story, how do you feel about the launch of this incredibly important project? – Well I judge it by the thank yous I get and on social media I’m
getting massive amounts all the time. My goal was to convey to people things that worked in my life. I was very lucky enough, and I don’t know whether I
learned by a lot of mistakes, a lot of things that made me successful. And I wrote those down year by year all these principles every
time I would make a decision. So there was a big bunch of those and I shared them with a lot of people over a period of time, three and a half million
people at one point on social media downloaded them, I got lots of thanks. My goal was to help other
people be successful and the reactions have been
thanks and appreciation. So I feel great about it. – So what has been the biggest surprise to the reaction of the book? From whether that is the masses saying X or somebody that you talked
about this with privately over the last 10 years said Y or somebody stopped you in the street, or this one quote that you never expected. As a net score, what has been the biggest surprise to you on the reaction of the book? – The getting the concepts. Okay, so let me just explain the concept. Every time I made a decision, I would write down the criteria
for making those decisions. So this is a bunch of principles that I’ve acquired over a period of time. Those people then started
to learn the benefit of that and then it caught on for me in my life because if I knew those principles and I could communicate
with those principles, then I knew that I could
communicate with you, if I could have partnership with you, any relationship that I had, whether it’s a family relationship or whether it’s a business, and then I could build
an idea meritocracy, in other words, where the
best ideas would win out. So there was a process of
building these principles, writing them down, making them clear and then taking those things and we built them into algorithms so that we could have the
computers make decisions. That whole notion of how
to be operating differently with principles, not just with decisions, that, I didn’t know that
I would be able to convey and now people are starting to think in terms of principles. And I think it has a big effect like what are our
principles of our country? Do we have common principles? Do we have different principles? So I was very surprised or very pleasantly surprised that people are understanding the linkages about how that systematic decision making, principle decision making works. – Were you worried that
it took high intellect to synthesize it and so when you say surprised,
pleasantly surprised, you were worried that you
wouldn’t be able to articulate the simplicity and then thus the masses
wouldn’t be able to consume it and that’s been exciting for you? – I’d say it in the following way. – Please. – I think that people are so caught up in making decisions, but they haven’t thought about principles. Okay, now it’s a
different way of thinking. When you start to realize that everything happens
over and over again and you have a principle, let me be clear what I
mean by principles, right, it’s how to deal with a certain thing that happens over and
over again effectively. You can have principles for skiing, you can have principles for parenting,, you can have principles for investing, whatever that is. And the issue of being able to understand it’s another one of those that you start to see something and you say, ah, it’s
that species of thing. – Pattern recognition. – Yes and connecting it to the underlying principles. Because then if you realize that there is a limited number of species of things that can happen to you and they happen over and over again, you can kind of go to that species, you say this is that species of thing, how do I deal with that thing? And by being able to have that principle that is very clear to you and make the connection between that thing and your decision and you do it over and you refine it over a period of time and you communicate it, it’s a very, very
powerful way of operating and because I think we’re
in a different world now. We were in a world where principles that bound us together typically came from religion. In other words, a Judeo-Christian background, and we say what are the
principles that bind us together? As religions then fade in our history, religion has become less important, where do we learn principles? How do we get principles? So we’re now in an environment I would say which is a low point
in terms of principles. If you ask them, what
principles do you have. And if you were to compare those, one mans with another, so how do we? So the notion of being able to
move to principled thinking, to have people articulate it and then to compare it and then to evolve. I think that we’re gonna evolve so that we as a group of people can say what are our principles and then are we bound
together by those principles? – Do you, I apologize, do you believe things
like the 10 commandments or the bill of rights are principles? – [Ray] Sure. – Do you believe that
there is vulnerability in the interpretation of? – I think that there is the absence of. In other words, when we
can say the interpretation, I don’t think those
people are sitting there and going off the checklist
of the 10 commandments or the bill of rights and then saying that. I think they’re lost, right? And I think that religion is, that element of religion, and by the way, I don’t think
that’s a particular problem. I think that each individual has now got to determine
his own principles. And so that’s the notion
that I’m very excited about. Because when they come along and they’re saying, now Gary writes down what is Gary’s principles? – Principle number one,
Michael Jordan is a bad person. Keep going. – Okay. – Okay, keep going. I’m a Knicks fan, 42 years old, just to give you some context, Ray. No but I understand. My principle, something I think, as you’re talking I’m
like right, it’s my belief that why not treat life like a marathon, especially if in the financial sector, everybody treats it like a sprint. If you’re gonna be around, marathon characteristics are better. – Right, well Gary’s got
his way of succeeding. So if you’re a successful person, there are certain things
you did to make decisions and if you go slowly and you write that down, and you say now when
I’m in this situation, I make that decision that way, and you collect those principles and then to get them, principles are the formula for success. And by getting people to think about what are their formulas for success, get them from wherever you can. These happen to be mine. I was lucky in that I, like yourself, I started out with nothing and I stumbled my way along and then over a period of time I became something more than nothing. And so I learned these things. And I’m at a stage in my life where I wanted to pass those along. As long as I can continue to get other people to think about what are their recipes for success, then that’s what it’s all about. – How much does self awareness and empathy play into this? In the ability to extract
out of you your principles? – Well I think in each person’s case, self awareness is a big thing. There’s two parts of our brain– – Do you feel you’re extremely self aware? – I try to be. – One man’s opinion about himself. – Okay, so let me phrase
it the following way, what helps me get my awareness?
– Yes. – Is the connection of my emotions with my intellect. In other words, when we say aware there’s a subconscious part of our brain. I say that there’s two yous. There’s a conscious part of your brain that’s the thinking you and then there’s the subconscious that you don’t know. And by being able to
bring those two things and make the connection between them, so if you feel something
and it’s coming up and you start to articulate it, then you’re connecting
it with its intellect. If it triangulates, in other words if the underlying
psychology and emotion is in sync with your intellect, then you move forward. What’s helped me a lot personally is meditation, transcendental meditation. – When did that start happening? – In 1969. So a long time ago. – Yeah, by the way, real quick, fun fact, January 12th, 1969 is the greatest day in American history. Do you know why Ray? – [Ray] No. – Because it’s the day the New
York Jets won the Super Bowl. Just a little fun fact for
everybody watching at home. So 1969. – 1969, Beatles were meditating, they came back. – I have a funny feeling of how you stumbled into meditation. – I stumbled into meditation. And probably with that funny feeling. – Yeah, but it’s really interesting and you started and
continued your whole career? – I’ve always meditated and it’s changed my life. – Can you tell me how often? What is the pattern with it? – Well typically twice a
day, 20 minutes each time. Now let me describe it. – Yeah, I want to hear you describe it. – Yeah and I want too go slow ’cause I want to make it clear. What happens is by, it’s a very simple exercise that you repeat your
mantra over and over again and it’s a word that doesn’t mean anything and what it does is it takes you into
your subconscious mind. You’re not conscious, you’re not unconscious. You’re in your subconscious mind. It’s a peacefulness and in your subconscious mind, that’s the part we’re talking about is the second you, it makes a connection between your conscious mind and your subconscious mind. And so that’s where your
creativity comes from. In other words, if you want creativity, it’s not like you muscle
it in your conscious mind. It’s like take a hot shower and the ideas come to you and you grab the ideas. They come up from your subconscious mind. And that connection also
creates your creativity because creativity comes from there. So it gives you an equanimity. In other words, it’s like a ninja. You can sit back, things come at you, and everything seems
slower, more in control and you’re in constant in control. – I apologize but I have
to, I’m just impatient, can somebody be in that state constantly? – No. – Okay. – You go into it and you come out of it but you can feel the difference. In other words, I walk around knowing that when I feel one way and
it’s different from the other, and I can then say, okay,
I want to go into the other because that gives me the equanimity and that equanimity and
that creativity is power. – Can you go into it without
the mantra 20 minute play? – I can almost slip into a
kind of ah, it feels that way so I can carry something with me but I’m not going into the same depth as that meditation. – I see. Because that part resonates
with me tremendously. So it’s interesting to see, so I think I can slip into
that kind of zone quite a bit and I actually try to stay
in that zone at all times. I do think through pattern recognition and this conversation, it’s how the things slow down but it’s interesting
to hear you say deeper. – Have you tried meditating? – Not much, no. – Okay, we’ll talk about
this at some point. I would urge you, okay, because you’re a little bit like me, I think you’re a little hyper, right? – Yes. – Okay, I’m hyper. I don’t know whether it’s ADD or whatever but anyway, the eyes and
ears are all going through. All of a sudden then when you can then go into
this world and so on, it’s unbelievable because it gives you that
control over your mind. Like I’ll tell you, for every human being.
– It’s interesting. I apologize ’cause I want to share this but I feel massively controlled
in the chaos and speed. I get more uncomfortable in the peace. Let me give you an example. I want music glaring at all, I’m uncomfortable in quiet. – That’s your problem. – [Gary] I believe you, I believe you. – That’s your problem. Because you’re not going
into that subconscious mind. You’re highly conscious. When you sit down there, you’re going to be in a position where you’re gonna get restless ’cause I know it happened to me. I love stuff, I love
stimulation and so on. But when you go into this other experience that you don’t know what it’s like yet, you’re going to find that all of a sudden, you’re going to get antsy and that’s signs that
you’re not in control. – I understand. – You’re in a world of a lot of stuff. When you go into the void, ooh, it’s something else. And that means you’ll gain control. You don’t have control of your mind. One doesn’t have control of one’s mind if one can’t do that, right? – [Gary] I understand. I understand that. It’s neat. – It’s neat. – Do you think it was January 12th, 1969 when you started this? ‘Cause I think it might be. Ray, I apologize, I really want this because I think people
are completely fascinated but I want to set the stage. Instead of going all the
way back to the origin, your professional life
that at a high level I was aware of when we first met and others that are watching right now. But for the ones that don’t, what is your professional
career from the beginning? From literally the beginning, first day you actually
worked, what did you do? – Well when I was 12 I caddied. So I’m an investor. I run a large– – [Gary] A very successful investor. – Right. For those that don’t know, I run Bridgewater Associates which is the largest
hedge fund in the world. – When did that start? – I started in 1975 but I started trading
markets when I was 12. – Real quick, I apologize, you started it in 1975? – Yeah. – November 14th, 1975? – I don’t know, did the Jets win then too? – No, I was born on that day. – Oh okay. – I’m just trying to nail
some dates down here. – Another good day. – Another great all time historic day. And so okay in ’75 but you started trading at 12, why? – I caddied. – [Gary] At a fancy place? – It was a fancy place to me. – [Gary] And they were talking? – I’ll tell you. I walked, talked, it was the ’60s, this was when the stock market was hot and we would talk about stocks and I would earn six dollars a bag. I carried two bags, $12. Whenever I would get $50 or more, then I would buy stocks and the first stock I bought was the only stock that I ever heard of, here’s my criteria. The only stock I ever heard of that’s selling for less
than five dollars a share. And the reason I bought it was I figured I can buy more shares so it went up and I would make more money. Investment strategy, right? – You’re 12. – 12. – It’s an early strategy. It’s okay. You built on top of that strategy. – So what happened is, well what happened is– – What was it? – What happened was the company
was about to go bankrupt, somebody took it along,
acquired it, it tripled and so I was hooked. So I was hooked. I said this is easy. – Do you remember the name of the company? – Yeah, Northeast Airlines,
Northeast Airlines. And so I figured this
is gonna be an easy game ’cause you can go into
the Wall Street Journal and you have all these names. I just need to pick one that goes up or one that goes down, well then I was just thinking up. Okay so that’s when I got hooked. And then I learned over a period of time that investing is not easy. It’s an extremely difficult thing and you have to be an independent thinker. The thing that I learned the most which was the most, was first, whether you’re an investor or you’re an entrepreneur, that you have to think differently in order to be successful. So you have to bet against the consensus. – That’s right. – Betting against the
consensus and being right is what you need to do and that’s not easy. And I’ll tell you when
you go down that path, you’re gonna be wrong
a fair amount of times. – That’s exactly right. – And so in order to know how to be wrong. So what I learned from this, main thing I learned, was to be an independent thinker and also to also have humility because the humility, the
worry about being wrong is the thing that is a power. It gave me an open mindedness. That open mindedness to
worry about being wrong, to find the most intelligent
people who disagree with me so I could gain their
perspective, curiosity. So this is what was the
most powerful influence. And so I remember I crashed
in 1982 in the markets. Meaning if you want the story
I’ll tell you the story. – I’m listening, brother. – Okay. So I started the firm in 1975. – Yes. – 1980, ’81, I had calculated that foreign countries had
been lent by American banks more money than those countries could pay back to those banks. And it was two and a half
times their entire capital. And I calculated that they
were going to default. That was a crazy point
of view at that time, very controversial,
independent point of view. – What was the counter point? – Well nobody thought you were gonna have this giant default and collapse. Everybody thought okay banks are lending, then it just wasn’t an awareness. It was like going into 2007, 2008, people didn’t get it. Okay? But I have to be an independent person, I did the calculations, I went around. Low and behold on August, 1982, Mexico defaults on its debt and this was a controversy, I get a lot of attention. I’m asked to testify, well I was asked to testify to congress and to explain to them what’s going on and I was asked on Wall Street Week which is then the show
at that time and so on. And so very publicly, I had said, “We are going to
go into an economic collapse.” I couldn’t have been more wrong. This was the exact bottom in the economy and the stock market. I was wrong. That didn’t pass through. Okay, painfully wrong. Can you imagine? I had to let go everybody
in my company at that point. I was down to basically me and having to make a
decision on what I would do. This is now seven years
after I started my company. And that was the best thing that ever happened to me in my life. – I get it. – Well maybe my wife and kids wouldn’t, but this was in any case what it gave me was the humility that I needed to balance with my audacity. It gave me that fear of being wrong, that fear of being wrong and that fear of being wrong gave me an openmindedness. That was the bottom, that was then from that point forward, from 1982 to now, now we have
1,500 people who work there, it’s been a tremendously
successful operation largely because of that gift of humility. And my attitude about
mistakes changed a lot. In other words, mistakes I
began to think of as puzzles that if I could solve the puzzle, I would get a gem. The puzzle is what would I
do differently in the future so I don’t have to have that
terrible experience again? And the gem would be principle, a principle of what I would
do different in the future. And that’s when I started
to write them down. So every time I would make a mistake or have that pain, I would then write down those principles. – What about the reverse? – Successes are nowhere
near as valuable as mistakes because you’re doing something right. And it doesn’t give you the kick, the motivation.
– Ray, do you know what I tell my audience? I tell them that I secretly
dream to lose everything. So I have a lot of people in this room, everybody’s smiling right now. I literally use audacity and humility. I’m listening to you and I’m like, wow, we are stunningly similar. Go ahead. – And this is the thing that a lot of people don’t understand and this is why it’s so important. They think successful people are like successful people aren’t. They think successful people are these all stars, they’re all knowing people and so on. I got to know the most
successful people in the world in all this. They’re not like that. They all have flaws, they just know how to compensate for it. And the compensation is largely knowing what they know
and most importantly, knowing what they don’t know and so when I’m hearing you, I think you probably learned
the same thing I learned. When we talk together, we convey and this is true of
most successful people, what you learned is you
can’t lose by an experience. Wheen you have a secret desire
that you’re talking about that you might fail, okay, it’s because you’re
in different connections and you and I are making
the same connection. I go into an experience and I say, I can’t fail ’cause either one of two
things is gonna happen, I’m either gonna have success or I’m going to have an experience that’s gonna teach me something. And so I’m gonna learn. And it’s all, you learn more from the mistakes and the pains. I’ve got a saying, pain plus reflection equals progress, pain plus reflection. So if you start to get that
out instinctual reaction that you have pain and
you get past that moment ’cause it’s an emotional experience and you can’t think all that clearly, you pause and you get past that moment and then you reflect in a quality way and you write down your
principles and what you learned so that you would do it
differently in the future, your life is gonna be great ’cause you’re gonna evolve. Failure is part of the process to achieve success and when you reprogram
yourself to think that way all of a sudden you’re on that path. And it’s the opposite that you’re taught, it’s the opposite that
you’re taught in school, it’s the opposite that you believe. Yes, you do, successful people get it. – How much of this equation has to factor in your ability to contextualize feedback from the people that
you care about the most? – Oh, it’s essential, right? – I’m aware, I’m trying to set you up here. – In other words, the criticism. – It’s the game. – It’s the key here. – Do you love when people criticize? – I love it. – Of course you do. – Of course I love it. – I love it so much. – Well I love it– – Do you know I think I manipulate it? I think a little bit of my shtick is to force negative feedback ’cause I feed off it of so much. – Well it does two things. It allows you first of all to get the things that
you might be missing ’cause nobody sees themselves objectively. – That’s not possible. – It’s impossible. So not only do you get
the objective feedback, but you redefine your
relationship with the person. Because if that person
is carrying it around, and they think, oh you
screwed up this thing and they’re having to bottle it up, you’re gonna have a lousy
relationship with them. The ability to speak
frankly with each other is the most important thing. We built an idea meritocracy, okay, I was talking about some of my personal
preferences and principles but okay now built an organization that is an idea meritocracy meaning how the best ideas win out.
– Guys, so everybody knows I just want to help my
audience a little bit here, what Ray’s company was
unbelievably famous for, this was how I interpreted
it from afar, very far away ’cause I didn’t pay attention
to the finance world but it hit the cultural lexicon, was the thought of like oh my God, there’s this company hedge fund which is very Wall Street where the first year in person from a very different background had an equal voice to the CEO and they would debate it in a room. It was a radical candor that hadn’t been seen before. – And I want to convey to everybody the magic of how this works. This is one of the things I
wanted to convey in this book. Okay, so now imagine that
you’re in an organization in which you really do believe
it’s an idea meritocracy where the best ideas win out. So then, I’m gonna give you the sentence of one sentence about
my company Bridgewater, what I needed and what I recommend to everybody. An idea meritocracy in which the goals are meaningful work and meaningful relationships, that they’re equally important ’cause I find them equally rewarding and they reinforce each other. So idea meritocracy where the best ideas win out in which the goals are meaningful work and meaningful relationships which are achieved through
radical truthfulness and radical transparency. Radical truthfulness means that anybody can say what they really mean and the transparency means that you can’t manipulate the truth. In other words, if you have transparency here, we literally record everything
for everybody to see. If I’m literally doing
a review of somebody or if I’m doing anything including mostly making my mistakes, I show everybody that process, they show each other and you have that openness because you have bad
things go on in the dark. When you open that, then everybody understands it and so you get to truth. – Do you have a sense of a reaction to the situation in our society right now where the exposing of the
shadows of our society are on full display right now? – It’s great. I think the key to an idea
meritocracy is three steps. First, put your honest
thoughts on the table for everybody to see. Most people don’t do that but put your honest thoughts on there, everybody puts them on the table. Okay, now it’s a lot clearer, do we honestly think that? That’s step one. Step two is understand the art
of thoughtful disagreement. In other words, you react to disagreement in a way where it’s curiosity, I might be wrong, not as a fight. – Not a political warfare. – Right, in other words, I’m curious. Human nature and our
habit is so counter that. Two people go to a restaurant. One says, I don’t like the food. Somebody’s reluctant to say, I do. Simple things like that. So to understand the art
of thoughtful disagreement, that’s step number two. And through that you can
understand each other better, you can probably make a better decision than you can make individually. The power of good collective
decision making is enormous relative to what anyone
has in their own head. And then the third step is if you don’t have
an agreement with that, how do you get past that? You have to have a protocol
in any relationship. – A supreme court, a supreme court. – [Ray] However you do it. – There needs to be a judge and jury whether it’s a process or
a human or what have you. It can’t go on forever. – It may be the same with your spouse. In other words, you still
have, whoever you’re with– – Is flipping a coin a good idea? – It could be. – Maybe. – It may be the rule. In other words, or what I like to do, general go to, is mutually agree on a party that you say, okay, help me
through this disagreement and help me get to that. That’s a good handy process. Or we in our own way, we have what we call believability
way to decision making. I’d like to tell you about it, okay? Believability way to decision making, to describe what it’s like
I’ll use a simple example. – Go ahead. – You’re sick, you have a bad disease and you say, I better go to the doctor. Well, you know that you’re not the person to prescribe yourself. So you know that you’re
not the believable person. So the best thing you could do is to find three people,
two or three people, ideally doctors in that case who will disagree with each other, who are willing to find the
right answer and will disagree. If you do that kind of triangulation and they all agree and
then you’re listening and it makes sense what they’re saying, probably you should go down that path. When they’re disagreeing, they’re bringing to
the surface the issues. When you start to think about how do I make sense of that and how do I weigh that, you’re then going to come forward and you’re going to weigh
at the end of the decision, you’re gonna say who
am I going to believe? And what you’re gonna do in your subconscious mind is gonna go oh, I weight
this one more than that one and I’m gonna make a decision. Okay, so now imagine a system in which everybody has
believability weighted points. In other words, imagine
that all the people that you’re working with actually start to create points. I won’t digress yet until we do it but so that now we know that you’re believability on that subject is different than your believability and everybody has that, then you have a weighted average vote based on believability. That’s an idea meritocracy. It’s gonna get you the best decision. The reason it gets you the best decision is because you as an individual don’t have the best answer. In other words, if I come to there, if I’m always the one that’s the boss, think about decision making, there’s two types of– – Before you go there Ray, I’m just ridiculously curious now and I’m doing a good job staying quiet and the fans are very happy right now while they’re commenting
about my quietness and the fact that we’re so similar which is probably interesting to them, I’m dying to know this answer. So you did this, you scaled it, it’s unparalleled documentation, I could be empathetic to it, I document not only my business, my actual life, da da da da da, on the hedge fund level– – [Ray] It has nothing to
do with being a hedge fund. – I’m very aware. On the hedge fund level. – [Ray] Okay. – When did the process of things like this or the principles make the wrong call on the execution, on the business level? – We make mistakes all the time. – Of course, of course. No, no, but I’m asking you
for the pattern recognition. So I’m listening. You’re deploying– – What it does is it shifts the probability of making a
mistake dramatically less. – I understand. – Okay, but I’m not done.
– Let me continue. – Clarify. – Did you find any pattern recognition to the vulnerability of the principles in the execution of the principles in the hedge fund environment? – And it’s not the particular
hedge fund environment, it is the notion of being, of individuals being able
to separate themselves from their opinions, to be able to know what they’re bad at, what their weaknesses are and by having that person by person so that they can then
put together the teams. In other words, people think differently. Somebody’s very creative, they’re not reliable. Somebody’s very reliable,
they’re not creative. They can’t get there themselves without having it all. So to know and embrace their
strengths and their weaknesses and to be able to– – Do you think somebody should triple down on their strengths? If you’re self aware and
you know you’re creative, or do you spend time on the
vulnerability, your opinion? – The vulnerability. – That’s where we’re different. Go ahead. – Okay, because your natural, your strength is going
to lead to your success and you’ve got it. Where I watch everybody fail
is in their vulnerability. If you go back and examine the problems– – Are there things that are
commodity vulnerabilities versus, like to me a vulnerability, lack of self awareness
is a fatal vulnerability. – [Ray] Sorry? – Lack of self awareness
is a fatal vulnerability versus being good at
structuring sentences. – Yeah, lack of self awareness, particularly what I’m saying is, lack of self awareness where it produces what you don’t know your weakness is, is killing you. To be able to orchestrate well, look you run a business, I run a business, 1,500 people, okay and you take that and you say what you do is you orchestrate
the power of other people. And it’s like an orchestra. If some guy is playing violin and another guy is playing the oboe and those people actually
have different skills. – Putting players in
a position to succeed. – Right. – Right? – Right. And in order to do that you have to really know what they’re like. And you know what the biggest
problem of most people and the biggest problem of most companies? They don’t want to really get at what people are really like. They don’t want to look
at their weaknesses. – Of course not. – That’s the biggest source of failure and it’s therefore, if you know that, it’s the biggest path to success. – 100,000%. Do you believe that
people are incentivized in the short term which makes them close the eyes ’cause they think they can
get through the funnel? – All the time. – Same shit. – It’s like the first order consequences and the second order consequences. More often in life, life tricks you because the first order consequences are the opposite of the
second order consequences meaning if you look at, it’s like food, all the food that’s delicious
is probably bad for you, a lot of them and the food–
– It’s 100% true man. – And it’s the exercise. Okay, it ain’t fun, I don’t like it. The first order consequences are the opposite of the
second order consequences. A lot of life. It’s almost like you’re being tricked. Life is gonna trick you. You’re gonna go, the guy who goes after the
first order consequences without regard to the
second order consequences is gonna be in trouble. – I call it checkers and chess. People are always just doing the first. – That’s right. And so that is the key. – 100%. – That’s why you have developed that instinct that we just
talked about a little bit ago where you can succeed from failure. Lot of people don’t get this, most people don’t get this because they think failure,
I don’t want failure but because you learned and I learned how to make the most out of failure, my instinct is almost
failure equals success. Nowt hat sounds dumb. – No it doesn’t.
– Failure equals success, but it’s true. – Micro failures, macro wins. – Right. Because you learn, whatever you do. – As long as it doesn’t eliminate you– – That’s exactly, if you don’t
get knocked out of the game, keep playing. – You know how many fighters get knocked down in the first
round and win the fight? A high percentage. It’s just so interesting. – [Ray] Right. – I love this shit so much. I believe in this tremendously and where it takes me and it took you in a certain path, where it takes me is the inner relationships. I think a lot of people can’t execute what you
and I believe in deeply because of their inability
to contextualize feedback of their inner circle. – But I’ve found, I built a whole culture based on this and I found this, it takes about 18 months
to get in the habit. It’s all a matter of habit. – I understand. – And if you create a culture in which it becomes part of the culture, it’s like a culture in
which people are eating and doing healthy things, then it becomes self reinforcing and it can be done. What I did in the book was the put together all the protocols ’cause I want not just theory like this, I wanted to get to
produce personal change. And if you’re doing the
personal change thing, you gotta do certain
things that are protocols that I learned over those,
by making the mistakes over something like whatever
it was, 40 some odd years. – Did your parents instill
self esteem into you or did you think that you
developed it over time by what you surrounded yourself with? – My mother loved me a lot. I think my dad loved me a lot. But I don’t know where, my dad was a jazz musician and so he stayed up late at night and he would come back and I didn’t see a whole lot of him. – Same with me. – I don’t know exactly
what that meant to me, that’s all deeply subliminal or whatever. But I did think my mom
thought I was terrific and she loved me a lot,
that was a blessing. I was also blessed to be able to have the
most fundamental things of being able to have a stable house, I could go to a school that was
a good school, those things. Lot of people are not in that position. – Are you competitive? – No I’m not competitive as much as driven. – I understand. Did you ever cry when you lost a game? – Hmmm, I don’t know. I don’t think so, I don’t think so but I don’t really know ’cause it’s such a long time ago. – Right, it wasn’t like
eight years ago in Monopoly. I mean I’m just, listen I’ll be honest with you, this is super, I wish
you knew more about me. They are literally, there’s an enormous amount
of people watching right now that are freaking out because not only are we
similar in our framework, we’re using similar, I use audacity and humility. I will show you content, one of the great things
about documenting everything is I’m not pandering to this conversation. I will show you videos from
five, six, seven years ago, I believe in audacity and
humility and self awareness, this is the only thing I believe in. I don’t even know what else to tell you. This is the framework,
I call it a blueprint, you call it a principle,
it’s the punchline. It’s short term, long term, it’s the value of patience, it’s micro failures, macro wins, it’s just all the same shit. I might not even read the book anymore. – I understand. This is what you’re talking about. This is how much you know and how good you are at something, this is humility. If you want to be successful, be here. – [Gary] I got it, man. – Now you understand it, a lot of people understand it, it’s not what our
education system teach us. – No shit, I got D’s and F’s. – Our education system is the opposite. – Right, I got D’s and F’s. – I understand, I was a lousy student. – No no, no, no, D’s and F’s. Were you D’s and F’s? You got C’s. – I got C’s. – Respect. – Okay, so I was, okay, but I mean like– – I get it. – Okay. – Do you believe, so let’s talk about that, ’cause I think people will
find that fascinating, you have an all time career, I’m pretty damn convinced
as long as I stay healthy I’m gonna have an all time career. We get C’s and D’s, do you think that we had so
much natural self awareness and self esteem being built by our moms that it gave us the
audacity at such a young age to quantify what the hell we were in and starting to develop other things that were naturally gonna happen later? – I don’t know. I could only tell you what it was for me. For me, it was like all that other stuff was like memorize this, remember
this, follow instructions, my brain didn’t work that way. I have a terrible rote memory. If I have to remember anything that doesn’t have a reason
for being what it is, phone numbers, names and all that, so there was something, in any case but I had a lot of curiosity. – A lack of practicality? – No, I wasn’t pract– – No, did that seem, to me,
they’re still doing it Ray when the information’s
on the God damn phone right in front of you. – I understand and that means you destroy, to me, it destroys your
thinking, your curiosity. Anyway, I don’t know why I was that way. – Do you think lack of education can be disproportional strength? – Oh yeah because you have to discover. Because you have to discover for yourself. Discovering for yourself, that’s a negative correlation. You have to discover for yourself. Do you follow instructions or do you discover for yourself? How can you be an independent thinker? We just went through this
issue in the investment area or if we’re taking entrepreneur, I just told you, you’ve got
to be an independent thinker, okay, how do you get to
be an independent thinker? It’s certainly not by
following instructions and memorizing what people are telling you all the way until you’re
coming out of school. – I get it. It’s why I don’t read books. It’s why before we went
on the air everybody, I was telling Ray about
what I’m up to here ’cause we didn’t talk about it last time. I had to taste this for myself. I could’ve hired people
that ran CBG brands. I need to discover it for myself, contextualize it for myself and understand the attention
graph of the end consumer for myself. – Right, so let me, and I’m the same way, that’s just how I learn but that’s how our brains work that way. Let me say that other peoples brains also work differently. – Not as good. – No, you’re wrong.
– I’m kidding, I’m kidding. I know, I know, I know. Why do you think I surround
myself with people? But it was a good joke, Ray. – Okay. – Good, keep going.
– Good joke. That’s the thing, when you realize you need it all, and you need that range.
– Offensive linemen get paid to. I agree man, the left
tackle’s really expensive. – Right. – I’m with you, brother. Let’s take a phone call. I am so curious to what, Vayner Nation, put your phone numbers into Facebook as you know, we have to take a call. This is a very intriguing conversation mainly because two or three years ago an enormous amount of
people that knew me best told me that I should
be a hedge fund manager not because of the economics but because of the way my brain worked and it’s been interestingly
running sitting here knowing how the most successful
you are in that world, I’m like, oh shit, they
might’ve been right. Anyway, who’s calling first? – [Male] Tim. – Tim. Ray, how much longer, just literally, let’s take it way down while
we get Tim on the phone, how much longer are
you gonna be promoting? I’m just curious on a micro. – Basically just through January or so and then what I want to do is pull other people’s principles out
and make it clear on that. But basically, it goes down. – Tim? – [Tim] Yes sir? – This is Gary Vaynerchuk and you’re on with Ray Dalio. – [Tim] Gentlemen, this
is Tim Ferris calling. – No it is not.
– Big fan. – Get the hell, you guys
are real characters. Hello Timothy. – [Tim] Good evening. (speaking in foreign language) And my question is for Ray. Ray, I’m so excited by what
you’re sharing with the world and it’s of such great value. I have to ask you because our conversations
have been so impactful for me, could you give any advice to people who are watching and listening to this who have struggled with or
struggle with depression or bipolar disorder,
challenges of that type? – Yeah, as you know I’m an expert on it. I have son who’s bipolar and he’s gone through the whole thing. So I can give a lot. And by the way, he’s totally successful, he’s totally together and he went through the journey. He did a, Paul Dalio is his name, he did a movie called Touched with Fire. I recommend you see Touched with Fire, anyway, it conveys it. And so I’m an expert, we did this. Okay, so if you’re, first realize that insanity is at the brink of genius. In other words, that there’s quite a lot, it’s just almost a tuning thing, the thinking differently, that creativity so okay, it’s a tuning thing. And then okay so the advice is when you go through the bipolar, first, to recognize that you have to go
along with the program, to follow other people. You have to take your medicine. The rules were take the medicine, get to bed before 11 o’clock every night because there’s a biorhythm
thing that’s going on, make sure, in his case,
meditation helped him a lot. It helped him keep centered. And most importantly,
don’t do substance abuse in any kind of way. Keep ultra clean. So those were the things but– – Would that be difficult with
the medicine part, step one because you could go too far with it? – No, the medicine is a tuning thing. – Understood. You’re talking about other things? – So what they do is they
knock you with the medicine to try to get you centered, in control. It produces a numbness. That numbness has the effect of you don’t want the numbness, you say, I want my life. Also, you have to
understand what a kick it is to have manias, it’s a super high and so you’re denied
that kind of super high and so that’s a very
difficult thing to get past. But when you start to crash enough as we talk about failure and crashing, this is super crashing. And then you say, okay
I don’t want it anymore. And you have to realize that to tune that medicine
is gonna take awhile. It’s a little bit of this,
and a little bit of that and it tunes it. So to be able to do that, to be able to realize that you will be more creative than ever. He’s become incredibly creative because he can deliver
on that other stuff. So when you start to realize
that other people can do it. – That’s the punch line. – So Tim and I have talked about this because it’s an issue. So Tim, talk to me. – [Tim] No, I just wanted to elicit that because I’m sure there
are people listening who could benefit from
those recommendations. I’ve found that the going to bed by 11 or certainly before midnight even though I’ve
historically been a night owl is a really effective intervention
or preventative measure like you mentioned and the meditation, whether it’s transcendental meditation or using an app like Headspace, it’s also a fantastic way
to tune, like you said, the awareness of your emotional state so that you don’t get
carried away by the story that you tell yourself or the stories that you
might tell yourself. So I agree with you. I just wanted to hear
someone of your credibility expand on it a bit for
people who are listening who might think that they’re
uniquely flawed in some way that’s unfixable, they’re broken because I just don’t
believe that to be the case. I struggled with a lot of this myself. I just wanted to have you say it. – A very important thing is that you’re probably gifted. – [Gary] 100,000%. – In other words, read
the book Touched with Fire by Kay Jamison and all that. If you take the people, this is people who are the most creative
people in the world. You can have Winston Churchill, I could list all of these
unbelievably creative people who are bipolar. So there’s a big gift element but it has to be managed. I have to get it tuned right. You know this, Tim,
because you experienced it, we experience it and so to realize that, also, that means that
people who are not suffering from these challenges also have the ability to move beyond it. They should have
tolerance of other people. They should have understanding
so they should be successful. Thank you for bringing that up. – Tim, first of all, thanks for calling. It makes this super rad and fun. Second of all, earlier I told Ray I was impressed with his hustle. He’s showing up in many, many places. I also want to give you that accolade. First of all, thanks for
coming the other day. Second of all, you’re hustling. I can’t avoid you. The book seems to be going well. How’s it going? – [Tim] It’s going great, I appreciate it. – And let me just say
something about the book which is really cool. Because by coincidence we’re
all talking about principles. So I wrote this book which is how to think about principles in general and my principles and he immediately comes,
same thing by coincidence, you got a book of a whole bunch of people’s
principles essentially that is, so it’s fantastic. – Right, do you want to
destroy Tim’s book sales? Do you want this dominate Tim? How do you feel about that? – No, no, no, Tim man, we
are in this thing together. – Together, bundle packs. Wait a minute, I’m gonna join in too. Crushing It coming out January
30th on Amazon, Principles. We could go a three way pack. Did you see the girth of Tim’s book? – It’s a reference book. – I know, I saw. – It’s not like you sit there. – Oh I know, you consume it, of course, the format was brilliant. – And the curiosity that you might have. – How ’bout how good looking Tim is? We haven’t talked about that part yet. – Okay, so Tim what’s your principle? I know what it is, stoicism. – [Tim] It is that’s a primary bedrock and I think that also
helps with the management of what we were talking about and not making this up, the most frequently bought
together with my book is Principles by Ray Dalio. – I love that. Hey Tim, one of my
favorite moves of all time in the thing that I’m fascinated about which is attention was during the height of TRL, P. Diddy would leave his office and go, and I think he was Puff Daddy back then and he would go to TRL
while Carson was on the air, and Ray this was a show,
do you know what TRL was? – [Ray] Yeah. – Okay. So Carson Daly would be on, he would have the Britney
Spears and the One Directions, oh not One Direction, excuse
me, 98 Degrees of the world and it’s funny how that
slipped up, that’s funny. Anyway, nonetheless, he
would have all these act ons and Puff Daddy would leave
his office at Bad Boy, drive to Time Square, run up the elevator,
the stairs, get on set and basically run on set, hack the attention of the youth of America to get the exposure. Tim calling this show right now is the P. Diddy move of 2017
in publishing personalities. Tim, I’m impressed, I’m very impressed by your strategies and I love you very much. – [Tim] Well I love you guys, too. I don’t want to monopolize
the conversation. – See ya. – [Tim] But Ray, thank you
for indulging the question and I think it’s really important. So I appreciate you putting
it out in the world. – Take care, Timmy.
– Thank you for bringing it up.
– See ya. P. Diddy, you got thoughts on him? – He’s a remarkably humble man. He’s a business man. First and foremost, a businessman. So he’s left brained
and he’s right brained and very humble. He used to have, when he was growing up, similar background to me in terms of he had a paper route. I had a paper route and he worked himself up there. I’m a super admirer of his. – I love it. While we’re getting one
more phone call, sports just ’cause it’s a big interest of mine. What’s your life with sports whether playing or consuming? – Not much. – [Gary] Zero. (phone ringing) Don’t get distracted. You like ping pong? – What I do, I don’t have much time for the sports.
– I respect that. How ’bout growing up? Did you consume any sports growing up? – I played golf. I was on a high school football team. – What position, safety? – I was a, I forget what they
call it, I was on the line. – Strong side line back? – I was on the line. – Very nice. Rushing the quarterback? – Yeah. – Trying to sack the quarterback. – That was my job. – You enjoyed it? Or you did it ’cause
it was the thing to do? – Yeah, I didn’t really enjoy it very much ’cause it was just sort of
like following and hitting. It wasn’t one of those things in which I had any, they gave me plays and the plays was you go
forward, hit that guy, no room for improvisation. – Who is this?
– Hello? – Kristi.
– Hello? – Kristi, no is that Kristi? – [Male] It should be Kristi. – What’s your name, my friend? – [Brian] It’s Kristi and
Brian, Gary, how are you? – We’re doing well, Kristi, how are you? – [Brian] I’m doing good. Let me put Kristi on speaker phone. Kristi’s right next to me, hold on. – No worries. – [Brian] You there, Gary? – We are here and we’re with Ray. Say hello. – [Kristi] Hello. – [Brian] Say hello. – Hello Kristi. – Do you guys have a question? – [Brian] We do. We were just sitting
here finishing dinner. We’re talking about, we’re like, oh my gosh,
I hope Gary calls us ’cause we’re huge fans. – Well thank you very
much, thank you Kristi. – [Brian] Our daughter’s chiming in. She’s two years old. She’s saying yes as well. – I love it. – That’s the best. I got two grandkids close to that. – So what question do we have? – [Brian] We are currently
reading the book, Ray and we just started reading it. It’s a fascinating book. You talked about it with
Tony Robbins not too long ago and we both want to know what your favorite
principles has been so far? – [Child] No! – Well my most important principle– – Hold on, real quick, don’t answer it, his favorite from the
people he’s been asking or his personal favorite? – [Brian] His personal favorite. – Understood, thank you.
– Mmhmm. Knowing how to deal with my not knowing. Starts off embrace
reality and deal with it. So to appreciate reality knowing that I don’t know, to separate myself from
my own points of view and to take in the best
and to learn and to evolve. All of those principles related to that. That’s really where the
greatest power comes from. – I love it. Brian and Kristi, thank you
guys so much for calling. Thanks for reading the book. – [Brian] Thank you, Gary. We really appreciate it. We follow everything you do. We just listened to your speech in Oslo and the $1.80 principle, we just started doing it
with our small business and we’re already seeing feedback from it. So we’re big fans of you both. – Thank you so much. – Ooh, can I ask you a quick question, what the $1.80 principle is? – So I am very, I think the reason I’m really starting to gravitate towards you is one of the things that’s fascinating about what I’m doing is I’m putting out so much content. I’ve been starting to talk about it as open sourced entrepreneurship. Unlike a lot of individuals that are living my profile, I have very little ask for my audience. I’m not interested in
monetizing my audience. I have a separate business world that’s not what I do. – I understand completely. – Good, I figured you would. So one of the things that’s interesting is I live much more in principles in the way that you would use it. To me things are very macro, there’s rules about
patience and the long game and humility, self
awareness, lack of romance. I’m just not romantic about anything that happened yesterday, things of that nature. Well what that does is
it gets very theoretical and I’m concerned that my
audience is getting the framework but they are so hungry for the details, back to schooling and
things of that nature. And I always say leave that to others. But once in awhile I get inspired. So I love leaving two cents, what’s your two cents on the issue, you’re leaving your two cents. I came up with this concept. On Instagram, when you put in a hashtag, it will show you nine posts at the top around that hashtag. So if we put in meditation
right now on Instagram there would be nine posts that are featured ahead of the others, that’s the UI of the product. – Oh, I didn’t know that. – So I told people, if you have no audience and
nobody knows who you are you can produce content but you can also become
part of the community. And so what I did on Twitter in the early days when
nobody knew who I was when I was running a wine business is I went on Twitter and I answered everybody’s wine questions that they were tweeting about. I left my two cents at scale. So I said, look, there’s
nine posts per hashtag. Every day I want you to pick 20 hashtags that are relevant to your
business or your ambitions, your nonprofit, whatever it may be. So nine times two cents for every post, go to those posts, look at the posts, consume the post and add
value to the conversation. Don’t leave a post that says buy my book, check out my profile, follow me. No, be thoughtful of what you see and then contextualize it and leave a meaningful point of view in the comments section. If you do that for nine
posts at a time per hashtag, you end up leaving $1.80 a day
of your two cents times 90. – Ooh cool. – And so what’s been amazing is this has only been
out for two or three days and I’m so glad it got brought up. I’m getting enormous feedback, these are people who
have 100, 200 followers. – See that’s very practical. – It is very practical and that is very rare for me because I’m just not into that, it’s not how I process. – But you see, you know those things. That’s why I’m saying, if
you could do the following, I’m just gonna give you advice. – Please, I’m listening,
I love it, I love it, I’m open to it, especially given it coming from you based on what I know about you. – Do it in your own way because when you’re actually
at a nitty gritty level and you say one of those and you then just dictate it, like you’re great verbally, you can just knock these
things off like this. – You’ll love this, right, I apologize, this is insane that this is happening. Iris, this is how you
have to edit the day, today, Iris came to me, she films me all day today. I’m at a conference, I’m making a joke that I like her the best more than D-Rock and Babbin, the other people that film me and I said because of that, I’m gonna start articulating and this is maybe in the subconscious, I didn’t even know we were doing the Q and A
show today theoretically, I knew it was coming this week but it could’ve been tomorrow. I literally started explaining things. They came to me and they said, “We’re gonna put up your slide “at the end of your talk.” I said, “Can you put up the slide “for the first two minutes “when I go up there “and then you can show me “live on the three different screens “and then you can end with my slide?” That’s just my normal demeanor. But what I did was I challenged myself, back to what you just asked me to do, and I looked in the camera
and I explained to my audience in real time why I did that and it’s because the way Twitter works, if there was even one
person in that audience that would see the slide go up, follow me on Twitter or get
to know what my handle was and they wanted to tweet my
quotes while I was speaking that wouldn’t have been able to be done had the slides come at the end and that’s why I always ask for my slide to go up
in the first two minutes with my social media handles so that the audience can
become the amplification of awareness of what I have to say. And so I’m starting to get into a process in this point in my career where I am starting to challenge myself to get into these details. And I assume that makes
a lot of sense to you ’cause that’s what you do. – So as you’ll see in the book, and it’s the same thing, what you have is the high level principle and then you gotta get
down to that formula like your $1.80 formula
actually gives that. – Can I ask you a question? – Yeah, go ahead. – I think I’ve struggled with that because I enjoy the unveil too much. I have felt in the last six months and now it’s synthesizing
in this moment right now that there’s been a little too much of me enjoying the aha of the detail, making the macro statement and having it be true two years later instead of over articulating it. – No, no, no, I’ll tell you
there’s a different aha. If you write down every
principle and so on, even the act of you thinking
it and writing it down and clearing it and showing it, lights up discovery, lights up discovery.
– I get it. I enjoy it in the macro. It’s why nobody, I don’t know if you
know, I assume you don’t, well actually through the process you may, nobody’s producing the level of content and putting it down than I am. I believe in it so much that I’ve created a human
production company infrastructure. – Do you have a book of principles? – No I don’t. – Do it. – I understand. Ray, this has been super enjoyable. – It’s been a blast for me too. – Ray, every guest on this show gets to ask the question of the day. So right now, you’re gonna
look into that camera and on Facebook and YouTube, thousands and thousands of answers. Here’s the chance for you
to do a little focus group, make a statement, I could care less, ask them what their favorite color is. I doubt that that’s what’s gonna happen. What question would you like
to ask the Vayner Nation? – Can you separate
yourself from your opinions so that you open yourself up to the entire possibility
of different points of view to get the best ones for you? That’s the biggest source of success.
– Question of them all. Love it. Ray, again, thank you. – Gary, thank you for having me. – Enjoyed it. You keep asking questions, we’ll keep answering them. (upbeat music)


8 Responses


    May 2, 2019 5:09 pm

    I barely made through half video, I've read Principles and was excited to hear from him but I can't stand watching one of the most successful people in the world being interrupted every five seconds, this is so disrespectful and it doesn't add any value, at best it may put you in the limelight in a negative way. Why don't you let people finish what they have to say? This is so embarrassing (for the guest) and frustrating (for the guest and us watching) . There's no point in inviting extraordinarily knowledgeable and successful people to your show if they can barely complete half sentence before being interrupted by another question or a "yes", or "I got it", or anything else.

  2. Erdian Tomy

    May 18, 2019 6:10 pm

    So disrespectful Host. I believe, a lot of people are watching this episode not only because of you Gary. I don't give an f*ck if this your regular style when doing convo in real life. You need to put your empathy man when you invite someone who more experienced & expertise in a particular topic. And now you talk with Ray Dalio, not with hopeless millennial when you can speak like an sh*t man.

  3. Glenn Goryl

    May 23, 2019 4:56 pm

    Gary's superpower is self-flagellation. You can't lose when your (not so) secret desire is to lose.

  4. TTHS Architects

    July 29, 2019 8:24 pm

    Wow, this conversation is incredible. Gary is very present in this conversation and asks some very pertinent questions. Ray's principles very much reflect and mirror what Gary's been expounding. Interesting commentary about meditation – Gary, I totally think you can be in 24/7 constant state of meditative awareness – the stillness amidst the chaos. I just spent 10 days in a monastic environment on a project I am working on – the monks use the term 'stillness flowing', which I very much think is about developing our ability to be 'still' regardless of the external circumstance – i.e. enjoying and loving the discomfort and the chaos.

  5. Brian Silcott

    August 13, 2019 11:48 am

    The interruptions by Gary V, who I respect, makes getting through this interview an arduous undertaking. Ray is the real deal and the interview could have been one for the ages. Sadly, an opportunity missed.


Leave a Reply