Mention the word spiritualism and many of us can imagine of some one with a halo around their head wearing a rope chanting mantras, doing yoga, okay different mental space altogether. But is it really that complicated, perhaps not. Here to demystify the concept of spirituality we are here to talk about “Spirituality for Everyone” Hello and welcome, I am Afrin Kadwaya. I have a very interesting panel with me, some one perhaps you won’t even imagine talking about spiritualism, but here is adman Prahalad Takkar who says he is a believing non beleiver. And there is actor Nandita Das. She calls herself a seeker. We are going to ask her to define that but in a while. And we have Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, world renowned spiritual leader and the founder of Isha Foundation. What is spirituality to you Prahlad? I’ve only have had two or three spiritual experiences in my entire life. When I went through my entire life…not even looking consciously, but when it did come across me, it (fumbles) like a broad sight. I mean it was…it taught, it taught you lots of things. It teaches humility to start off with you know, and teaches you how really insignificant you might be in the (scape) scope of things in, in the larger scope. The first time I had a spiritual experience was when I was diving off a reef in Lakshadweep. Actually the first time was the ocean itself. The ocean and its enormous moods and its power and its essence of fear, you know. That you, you’re scared of the ocean because of its incredible unknowing power, and it’s, it’s also the unknown. It’s, it’s the last frontier in terms of what you don’t really know about. And when you explore it, and the more you learn about it the more you realize you don’t know about it and that in itself to me was a spiritual experience. Right, Nandita what’s your take on spirituality? Have you had a spiritual experience like Prahlad mentioned? Yeah I mean like he said about the ocean. I think going to Ladakh and seeing those mountains and being humbled again, realizing that we really are a spec and that we give so much importance to ourselves and everything around us and take things so seriously. So, I mean there have been moments of…I don’t know if they’re spiritual experiences because you know a lot of things that you think could be spirituality but isn’t. So it’s a process of almost elimination. Is it morality – no; is it religion – no. I don’t think it’s complicated but it definitely is not something…for me at least that is easily definable. Sadhguru do you want to define it for us? Should we even attempt the definition then…(Sadhguru laughs). Or is there a need to define it? (Laughs) Definitely there is a need to define it because otherwise, every overwhelming experience will get labeled as spirituality. Whenever any human being experiences something bigger than himself, the traditional way of looking at it is, ‘oh this is God…’ because it’s something bigger than you. The whole idea of God is just that; that something bigger than you, anything bigger than you. It could be a human being, it could be an experience, it could be a natural thing, it doesn’t matter what – but is this spiritual? No this is just life, and life is not a small thing. When I say just life, I’m not trying to dismiss it as a small thing; it is the greatest thing. Only because life…when life becomes an overwhelming, powerful, blissful experience for you, you want to know what could have created this. If you want to know the process or the source of creation… which is the most intimate part of creation to you? Your own body, isn’t it? There is a captive creator here, he’s trapped within you. You shouldn’t miss him here. If you don’t miss him here, if you know the source of creation within you, you are spiritual. If you look for the source of creation outside, you’re a scientist, you will look forever. This is something the topmost level of scientific community has realized that they will be looking forever, that’s their attitude. They will explore the existence, they will never know the source of creation. That’s very clear to the scientific community now. Right, but Prahlad, if I could ask you, do you think what Sadhguru is saying is relevant in the times that we’re living in with 14-hour work days, 20-hour work days. Do you think that we realize the importance of it? Is it still relevant today? See I think today a lot more people are traveling within themselves to seek what they’re looking for. Like my journey started with the ocean, but eventually diving into the ocean was like diving into myself. It was confronting all my fears, all my essential baggage that I was carrying in my head. I had to deal with all that __ You agree Nandita? Yes, I mean I think it’s more relevant than ever because there is also a lot of emptiness with this 20-hour of work and knowing it all, having so much variety whether in terms of media or entertainment or work or money or definition of success or what ever it maybe. In fact in India it’s still seen much more skeptically. As it’s seen like in the West and all, people are wanting to find because there’s greater emptiness. They’ve done it all, they’ve come the full circle and now they are looking for something that’s deeper, that’s more inward looking, that is beyond all of this because they haven’t founded the answers in this. You almost think you’ve cracked the code and you realize at the end of it you haven’t. And I think we are not learning from them, and we are still in that circle; We still think maybe we’ll find some form of entertainment or happiness or success or whatever, you know these words are, these fulfillment through these material things and because…and, and that’s why we are skeptical. We think ‘oh this spirituality is an esoteric word, it’s for gurus and followers,’ and there is…there is a lot of mysticism around it. No I would like to address that question in a different way. Like I’m sorry I’m not butting in because I…that question wouldn’t be relevant if I had covered this. See there is…in science, there is science and technology. Everybody thinks they’re actually interested in science but it’s not true. Most of the world is only interested in the offshoot of technology because it provides things for you. Similarly when it comes to inner nature, if you do not understand the essential science, then I can teach you how to be peaceful. But that’s it, to a certain ext…you know…day-to-day how to be peaceful I can teach you, but if somebody says ‘I am a seeker,’ I believe them (Laughs) that they are seekers. Now about going to the ocean and experiencing a overwhelming experience, going to the mountain – it’s beautiful. You must see, enjoy the world the way it is but you need to understand the fish in the ocean doesn’t think it’s a spiritual experience nor the mountain goats think a mountain is a spiritual experience because they’re there all the time. If you bring them to the city they may think it’s a spiritual experience. But it’s not the mountain that makes you spiritual, it’s being in that… environment… See it is just the breaking the barrier. It’s what you feel about yourself in relation to the world around you. No, it is the breaking of the barrier within you. Something broke within you; you are in a shell, this broke and became a bigger shell. What I’m saying is if you get used to that bigger shell, it feels the same way as the previous one. So if you want to become boundless and you attempt it through the physicality, what you’re doing is you’re trying to go towards boundlessness in installments. Can you count one, two, three, four, five and one day say infinite? You’ll only become endless counting. So People used to work for eight hours, now you’re saying 14 hours, somebody says 18 hours because you’re becoming endless counting. That’s not the way, physic…through physical means you can never reach towards a boundless nature, because every human being is looking for that. You give him whatever you want; three days he’s okay, fourth day he’s looking for something. Somebody may label it as greed; I just say this is life process in the wrong direction that’s all. Right, yes. If you want to know a boundless nature, you must experience, you must perceive something which is beyond the physical which they might have touched when they jumped into the ocean, when they saw the mountain, when they sang a song, when they danced, when they closed their eyes; in so many ways it could have happened to an individual, they touched it. But now the question is…question is of sustainability. So how do you sustain it, there’s lot more questions but I’ll have to take a break at this point. (Announces break) But coming up next is changing the star of spiritualities, is it just a fad, is it here to stay, lots more questions to the Sadhguru stay tuned. Welcome back, “Spirituality for Everyone “, that’s the topic of discussion today. We have Sadhguru answering some very basic questions and before the break You mentioned how one can attain that boundless state. I want to come back to you in very simplistic terms; what does it mean? What is spirituality? Is it yoga, is it meditation? Quantify it for us if it’s possible. Spirituality does not mean any particular practice; it’s a certain way of being. To get there, there are many things to do. If you have a certain type of body, that body will not support that. This is like growing a garden in your house. If the stem of the plant is in a certain way, it won’t yield flowers, you have to do something. If the soil is in a certain way it won’t yield flowers. If the sunlight is in a certain way it won’t give, so you have to take care of those things. So if you cultivate your body, your mind, your emotions and your energies to a certain level of maturity, something else blossoms within you; that is spirituality. When you’re rationale is immature, it doubts everything. When your rationale matures, it sees everything in a completely different light. But if I may say so that even to be confused I don’t think is a bad thing all the time… Not at all. To be confused about the right thing is more important than to be too sure about something… Confusion, confusion is a boon. If you have made your conclusion, that’s death. Conclusion is an end, confusion means you’re looking. So the basis of the confusion is that you have realized you don’t know. Recently I met somebody who, who, who believes that he’s a very strong atheist. He came to me and said ‘I believe there is no God.’ I said, ‘I don’t even believe that.’ (All Laugh) But can an atheist be spiritual then? No, but you must understand even a theist cannot be spiritual. (Laughs) That’s confusing now. (Laughs) Because atheist and theist are not different people. One believes there is God another believes there is no God; both of them are believing something that they do not know. You are not sincere enough to admit that you do not know, that’s your problem. So theists and atheists are not different. They’re the same people just putting up an act of being different. A spiritual seeker is neither a theist nor an atheist. He has realized that he does not know, so he’s seeking. But you think spirituality has only got to do with age and time. Do you think that even a child can’t be spiritual? Who, who is spiritual? Who can’t be spiritual? Can you…is there a parameter to that? Normally if people…if somebody, if somebody dies, they think they have become spirits. Yes? So I would say only the dead cannot be spiritual. (All laugh) Every living, (Laughs) everything that is alive can be spiritual. Including a child. Yes. In India if you don’t know this in this culture, always a child is treated like a God. Yes? Traditionally we see the child like a God because he hasn’t acquired the nonsense that others have. He is closer to creator than any body else. I think that’s so…here it’s culturally so; I think everywhere in the world one way or the other people recognize that, isn’t it? I think also asking the right questions is kind of important. We have such a need and this is not just about… I wouldn’t say asking right… Any question is the right question, only answers can be wrong. (Laughs) Well, I’m not so sure because sometimes… Questions cannot be wrong, isn’t it? Not wrong or right; maybe right or wrong itself is a wrong word. It’s lack of a better word because that itself makes it moralistic or defines it, but the human need to constantly label things or to constantly say it is this or that. You know can an atheist be spiritual? One there is an assumption that there is a connection between religion and spirituality and therefore can someone who is not religious be spiritual. So I’m not so sure if that question itself pre-supposes the connection between religion and spirituality which it may not have or… No, the thing is…I would like to clear this. This is true, but at the same time, what you see as a religion today is sometime ago, a long time ago, they all started a spiritual processes, got too organized and they became religions. So there is always a possibility. The spiritual movement that you start today, after a 100, 200, 500 years may become a religious movement because spirituality has to be kept up with subjective aliveness in it. If that subjectivity dies, it just becomes a belief system. So are they connected? Yes, religion is spirituality gone bad. (All laugh) I mean, personally I believe that religion has actually committed more crimes against humanity in the name of God than any other activity that human beings have had actually… Look at the history of humans. We’ve use organized religions constantly as a method of exploitation more than a leading to a better life. And it creates rift, it creates schisms… It’s divisive…Divisive by nature, it becomes political and it’s used by people and misused by people over and over again. Because there are whole lot of people out there who actually believe in it so blindly and so completely for lack of anything better. But I don’t know if they even believe in it. Because like he said that spirituality also…I mean religion can also have spirituality. It’s the connotation that it has taken… No, no. They don’t believe in it blindly. The moment you believe something, you become blind. The moment you believe something, you become blind to everything else. See the whole conflict on the planet is not between good and evil as they’re trying to project it. It’s always one man’s belief versus another man’s belief, isn’t it? Because the moment you believe something you become blind to everything else. So the need for belief is more psychological than spiritual. You want to cling to something, you want to feel secure, you want to feel like you know it all. That’s coming from a very immature mind. What is the problem; you don’t know anything about this existence. Actually you don’t know. What is the problem? It’s beautiful (Laughs) and you see how to make yourself beautiful within yourself, how to make yourself joyful; all this is within your hands. So you’re placed in an existence where you don’t know where is the beginning, where is the end. In spite of all the scientific exploration, you still don’t know where it begins where it ends. So… So where it begins where it ends we are going to have that discussion after a short break. It’s time actually now for a short break. But that discussion coming up next. So it’s about “spirituality for Everyone”. So how do you incorporate little things in your everyday life to change for the better, that’s coming up next, stay tuned. We were talking about spirituality for everyone, but is it really possible to find the spiritual in our everyday lives. Let’s begin by asking Nandita one question. You earlier mentioned that film making for you, what you do in your everyday life actually gave you that inner peace. Do you want to tell our viewers about that? I wouldn’t put the question like that because I don’t know if it gave me enough…enough peace. I was very stressed also when I was shooting, I just finished my directorial debut film. What it did was that you…philosophically we talk about things, we talk about spirituality, you kind of you have your own little theories about life, but sometimes you just suddenly get that plain field to actually practice those theories. Like when you’re with 100 people in a unit, you’re directing your first film, you still don’t know so many things, you are dealing with different egos, sometimes even politics that’s happening on the set and I would let go and I would be less hard on myself and that itself is tough because as a person I’m quite hard on myself and hard on everyone else and all of that. So to let go and say there were reasons that peace is more important, that the film is not the end-all be-all of anything; you know that life is greater than a film. To…I think to be able to genuinely think that during the shoot for me was like a little step towards…a baby step towards where I want to go. Prahlad have you made that baby step? No, no not at all. I’m a… He’s made giant leaps. I’m…I’m a enfant terriblo (terrible infant) on my set; I scream, I shout, I’m extremely difficult, I’m uncompromising and I give everybody a very hard time. You think some one like that is spiritual? You think throwing tantrums and getting angry, screaming at others…that’s a, that’s a bad sign. That’s a very bad sign so I have to… the whole journey into spiritualism is try and become where…Nandita will come and say ‘to hell with it.’ Not at all… (All laugh) I don’t think compromise is the right thing or the good thing at all, but it’s…it’s just that you know what you give importance at what time. It’s not a compromise, life is a compromise. I mean there are many things that you know you can… what I heard…heard about Prahlad is after his spiritual practices started, something, some simple things started in his life, when he screamed before the whole neighborhood heard, now only the unit hears. That means it’s a more controlled calculated screaming. Screaming is needed, do the screaming but to the extent it’s needed, to the extent it’s needed; nothing more, nothing less. But I have a very basic question Sadhguru. Do I need to go to an ashram? Do I need to go to a five-day workshop to know what spirituality is? Can I do something in my everyday life to help myself? See, even to learn the ‘ABC’ of the language, you went to a school for years, isn’t it? So you want to learn something which is very subtle, something that could transform your life completely. Why do you think five days is too much? Or three days is too much? Somewhere in your mind, still your mind is so deeply conditioned to believe that your life will get better only by fixing the outside. It is this misconception which is giving you which is making you give so much attention to the outside, not paying attention to the inside. So if you want to change the way you live or experience life, if you want to experience life blissfully or exuberantly, what should you pay attention to, this one or outside? If your work is important… the excuse that all of them will give is ‘my work is so important that I can’t pay attention to myself.’ There are other kinds of people, holy people who think… they think it’s selfish to pay attention to themselves. Now if your work is important, the first and foremost thing that you should do is you need to be worked at. Absolutely. See, how, how good an actor you are, how good a director you are, how good anything you are essentially depends on how good you are, isn’t it? Absolutely, right. You’re acting, you’re directing or whatever else you’re doing is a…it’s an outcome, it’s a consequence. You’re trying to attend to the consequence, not to the source. You’re trying to attend to the flowers not to the roots. You attend to the roots, flowers will happen for you. Sadhguru one very simple question. What can we do in our everyday lives to get that spiritual experience? One thing is we can put you onto something very simple which is subjective. Any subjective technology cannot be taught to you in uncommitted atmospheres, so if you are willing to give yourself a small space of time which is very committed and focused, we can put you on a simple practice where everyday…investing just 21 minutes a day your day starts with a very phenomenal spiritual experience within you. Very powerful experience which lasts during the day and which leaves you peaceful and joyful through the day. Apart from that, to sustain it, one simple thing that every human being has to do is your sense of involvement is indiscriminate. If you look at this person also you’re equally involved. If you look at the tree also you’re equally involved. If you look at the cloud also you’re equally involved. You’re equally involved with your own body and the breath and everything. If you have no discrimination as to which is better than which, and you’re equally involved with every aspect of life, then you will be constantly spiritual; nobody needs to teach you anything about spirituality. Naturally a human being is longing to become boundless. He is bound because he is drawing boundaries as to this is good and this is bad and fixing himself. So to be non judgmental, or to be in the moment… No, no. See those are all morals we’re trying to dra…draw out of it. So then what do you mean when you say that we don’t draw boundaries? See, if I’m involved with you, right now I’m…when I’m talking to you I’m totally involved with you. When I’m involved with you, do I judge you / not judge you – that’s all left to me. Why should I give up my discretion? Why should I give up my ability to discriminate? I do, but my involvement is never lower. Whether it’s you or a tree or a dog or a cat or just the air that I breathe, I’m equally involved, consciously involved. Once you are involved indiscriminately, then there is no entanglement with life. People are always (been) talking about detachment simply because they’re afraid of entanglement. If you try to detach yourself, you not only avoid entanglement, you also avoid involvement. Where there’s no involvement there’s no life. Yes. I am afraid we have to wrap it up here. Thank you so much for coming to our studios today. And hope for our viewers at the end of this half hour, We succeeded in making it slightly less complicated the whole concept of “Spirituality for Everyone”. Thank you for watching and stay tuned, lots more coming up on Times Now.